Once again, we have two giant monsters punching each other in the face. In the blue corner, we have an Imperial Knight! Nobel, honorable, and armed with a very large chainsword. In the very very red corner, we have the Lord of Skulls! Let's see how these two stand up to each other
The Knight:
The main advantage of an Imperial Knight is going to be its initiative. Striking before the Lord of Skulls gives the knight a chance to kill without taking any damage.
Chances of killing a Lord of Skulls without the charge: 22.42%
Chances of killing a Lord of Skulls with the charge: 29.99%
Since the knight can't stomp the Lord of Skulls it loses quite a bit of its normal power.
The Lord of Skulls:
While the knight may be striking first, the Lord of Skulls has a lot of goodies. A 5+ invulnerable save and 'It will not die' make the Lord of Skulls quite durable against anything but destroyer weapons especially when combined with its nine hull points. Finally, the Lord of Skulls is going to gain an additional attack for ever hull point it has lost. Even hull points that are regenerated are going to still give bonus attacks!
Chances of killing a knight without the charge: 42.08%
Chances of killing a knight without the charge: 50.45%
That was fairly underwhelming.
Using a Lord of Skulls:
The Lord of Skulls is a bit cumbersome. It has some solid shooting and some strong melee attacks, but its price tag is severely limiting.
Shooting:
The best option here is definitely the skull hurler. It and the gorestorm cannon are going to eat up all but the heaviest of non-vehicle units. The daemongore cannon even makes taking down multiple monstrous creatures a possibility.
Melee:
Destroyer attacks in close combat are fierce, but 4 weapon skill makes them sad. I wouldn't recommend going after any super-heavies that are dedicated to close combat.
Between the shooting and the melee, the Lord of Skulls ends up as a 'bully' unit. It will easily decimate any weaker units (without much damage in return), but it will run into trouble if it tries to take on another super-heavy. They key to making a Lord of Skulls more than just a bully is making sure you bring invisibility or a grimoire of true names. If you are running a Khorne Daemonkin force, then you are going to need to bring allies. Since the Lord of Skulls can be taken with Chaos Marines and Daemons, this isn't always an issue.
Other Options:
The Lord of Skulls is an expensive option. Lets see some other options for (relatively) the same price.
Warhound Titan:
Not exactly a 'friendly' option, but if you are already running superheavies, and you happen to have the model, then this is a solid choice. Warhounds can be set up to take out large sections of Infantry, but do have options against other titans as well. The void shields also give it a bit more survivability than a Lord of Skulls.
Chaos Knight + Bloodthirster + Maulerfiend:
I can't remember if Chaos Knights are still in the 'experimental' forgeworld, but ITC allows them, so they are fair game at many tournaments.
This is a solid combination. The Knight allows for some decent ranged shooting (something that is lacking in KDK lists), but still provides strong melee attacks. Bloodthirsters with a greater axe of Khorne and Maulerfiends with lasher tendrils are always a good time. The 'thirster + maulerfiend option is more than capable of taking down a knight.
Gorethunder Battery + Bloodthirster
Another viable option is to use a Gorethunder battery. The shooting is not quite as good as the skullhurler, but it will still cause some serious pain.
The Lord of Skulls seems to fall into the 'jack of all trades, master of none' category. Its strong melee attacks are hindered by its average weapon skill and and initiative. A Lord of Skulls will put some serious hurt on a Baneblade, but isn't going to excel at taking down anything dedicated to close combat. At the same time, its shooting will carve through large blocks of infantry, but will fall short when it comes up against any decently armored vehicles. A Lord of Skulls is designed to perform a roll that most Daemonkin or Daemon armies are already capable of doing. In a sense, it is incredibly fluffy because it mirrors the strengths, and weaknesses, of most Daemonkin/Daemon armies.
Wow. That's some incredibly depressing math. For being 888 points base, you would hope the LoS would perform a little better... The fact it has a slightly higher rate of straight up dying to an Imp Knight and a much lower rate of killing it when compared to a D-thirster is alarming. Especially when you consider the fact you could take 3 d-thristers for the price of one LoS... Just taking one D-thirster would give you the same/better killing power in CC and 613 more points to spend on re-couping the shooting the LoS brings to the table.
ReplyDeleteYeah, my biggest takeaway from running these numbers was that a LOS isn't a melee monster. There are much better options for way fewer points.
DeleteOne of the nice things about being a jack of all trades is that a boost in survivability (from a grimoire, or invisibility) will make a LOS VERY difficult to deal with. It will have some kind of answer to many threats. The problem is, without that boost to survivability it is just not going to be enough.
Yeah, that's been my take away from my experience playing with him. The firepower is viable as long as your opponent isn't loaded up on vehicles, but it's really not too hard to strip off 9 hull points (especially when imp knights and wraithknights are so prevalent). The 3++ from grim would certainly help with that.
DeleteThe LoS has bonus rules too that I ask are you taking into account? Fleet helps it get the charge off. It can Thunderblitz into a charge too depending on where you play (it should be able to since it trades stomps for thunderblitz in the datasheet).
ReplyDeleteIt also has rage for that bonus attack on the charge, and daemonforge which I would assume you use right before you charge for lots of tastey rerolls and to give you 1 bonus attack (but you might lose a HP too which could go badly)
The math assumed you're getting into combat regardless, so fleet would be moot.
DeleteAs far as the thunderblitz goes, you can't use the thunderblitz table against super-heavies. So all you get is the normal ram attack which has the same odds of hurting you as the knight. And then you can only snap shot in the shooting phase. Better to just shoot at full BS and not risk screwing yourself over.
Also technically daemonforge doesn't work in CC for the LoS because he has a D weapon. Daemonforge allows you to re-roll failed To Wound and Armor Pen rolls. D attacks roll on their own special table "instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration." Rolling on that table results in attacks that "wound/penetrate armor automatically" so there is nothing to re-roll. In either case, even if your opponent allowed you to use it, it doesn't grant a bonus attack. Just the re-rolls.
Just read up on tank shot and ram and super heavy vehicles, but didn't see anything about super heavies snap shots after that maneuver. Super heavies always shoot at full BS regardless of movement.
DeleteFleet helps dictate that you get the charge, just throwing that out there. Also the daemonforge rule will help it get wounds with its guns, and possibly lose a HP in the process giving it +1 attack. If it had also Rammed and lost a HP in the process no biggie, that's +1 attack. Then when it charges rage adds another +1 attack on top of the charge. Hopefully, you don't die to the knight swinging first of course. Imagine the damage you dish out if he gets you to 1 HP left though.
I suppose you could always hang out behind cover shooting over and over and let him charge, then he has to go at initiative 1 and you get to swing first. Not very khorne like though but it lets you get more shots in before the brawl.
Obviously this 888 point sink (and that it is) is very hit or miss. Not in anyway good for a tournament. I would be terrified of double stormsurges or webway portal D-scythes, but meh that's the game right now.
Honestly, I think it's main problem is that it doesn't have enough HP for being an 888 point model, that's less than a baneblade. How much does a warhound titan have, I think they are around 900 points? The poor LoS has all these nifty rules that could make it great, but amount to nothing if it gets super nuked turn 1. Pretty sure that would be an autolose.
DeleteRegarding the snap shots. The thunderblitz rule says it is performed exactly as a ram/tank shock with the additional affect of the thunderblitz table. The rule for ram/tank shock says that any vehicle attempting one must only fire snap shots the rest of the turn.
DeleteRule for ram*. A tank shock won't force you to snap shot but ramming a superheavy would. I would be cautious about losing too many hull points before you want to assault one anyway. The knight gets around 3-3.5% increased chance to kill the LoS for every hullpoint he's down. If you're at 6 and he assaults you, you've only got about a 65% chance of surviving. GRanted, if you do you should be able to kick his ass. It's a risky proposition though.
DeleteAnd yeah... the durability is the main downside. It's a huge amount of points for something that is not too difficult to take off the board.
DeleteThe primary issue with the LOS is it's weakness to being tarpitted. It only has 4 attacks base at WS 4 and cannot stomp. So in assault it's only offense are its D weapon swings, which infantry hoards don't care about. A big unit of fearless infantry that assaults the LoS will lock it in combat and won't let it out until all the models are dead and, without stomps, this means it'll take a LONG time for a LoS to kill them one by one.
ReplyDeleteThere are some arguements that a LoS can tank shock out of close combat, but the RAW doesn't really support this and there is no ITC ruling on it. So in the current state, the LoS is stuck like any other walker, even if its against a single gretchin :P
So just beware fielding such a pricy unit. It would be wise to include some hounds or something for support. To get your points out of this guy you really need to be thunderblitzing, shooting, AND assaulting with him. that means you cannot shy away from getting close up and this puts you at risk of a tar pit.
I think hounds indeed would be the most excellent unit to avoid tarpits, especially if a lord included with them has the axe of blind fury. I am pretty sure up to 13 ap2 attacks on the charge would get the LoS out of some sticky situations.
DeleteThe problem with taking and anti-tarpit unit is you are just taking on more cost to the LoS combo. Plus, you'll likely find yourself in a situation where it would be tactically superior to seperate the hound unit form the LoS during a game, thus putting your LoS at risk again. There isn't a ton of fearless hoard units out there but it would really suck take a LoS and start smashing face only to get a free unit of 17 termagaunts spawned from a tervigon assault the LoS and tie it up the entire rest of the game.
DeleteWhat they really need to do is just rule that it can tank shock/ram out of combat. There is a slight precedent there to make it feasible, and it certainly make sense that a thunderblitzing super heavy demon engine could just plow through some pesky infantry models poking it with a sharp stick.
DeleteIf you want to combine a small KDK CAD with the new Daemon book you could have some pretty good defense for the LoS. Grab the Khorne detachment for 8 units of hounds and you can slap the grimoire on the herald that comes with the formation. Now you have lots of interference units and you have the extra durability from the grimoire. Also potentially if you do the full Daemonic Incursion detachment and make that your primary, you can use the add/subtract to the warpstorm table roll to try to get the +1 to invul result. That would make the LoS a 2++ :-)
DeleteI like it.
DeleteIt's still hard to fit in any decent size of a list. Take 8x 5 hounds and a juggerherald (locus, grim, deathbringer). Take an auxiliary of furies for 35 pts to fill the incursion detachment. Then in kdk take a basic herald, two cultists, and a LoS with skullhurler. That puts you a tad under 2k (~1950). It's not a terrible list against most armies (as long as the grim is successful) but has absolutely no anti-air so that will wreck you.
DeleteMeh I usually ignore air anyways. Also, I think the LoS in a pinch can snapshot his big gattling gun at a flyer for some success maybe?
DeleteHe could try I suppose, but I prefer to take off the gatling gun in favor of the Skullhurler because of his BS3. Right off the bat half your shots miss. Against anything other than a MC with a 3+, the skullhurler performs far better.
DeleteAndrew, can you do a look at an invisible Changeling vs a Wraith Knight for me? Now with the changes to Tzeentch discipline he doesn't look as worthless taking him in the warpflame host. I would of course take Fateweaver in Command too to make my opponent reroll a stomp result of 6 (has worked well so far).
ReplyDeleteDo your friends allow you to use Fateweaver's ability to re-roll dice *someone else* rolled? One of my friends, who is also a Daemon player, claims it only works for rolls that the controlling player made himself. I've seen the same argument in lots of places online stating "you can only re-roll dice that you threw in the first place" but I can't actually find anything to back this up. Fateweaver's rule simply says he can re-roll any single die he wants. And the main rulebook says nothing about limiting re-rolls to only dice you threw in the first place. I don't see anything written in stone that prohibits a player from picking up an opponent's dice and re-rolling it for him.
DeleteThe phrasing says, "The staff allows you to re-roll" since you didn't roll the die it wouldn't affect anything.
DeleteSorry, my friends and I play that ghosthelms can pick up and reroll my Psyker dice, so Fateweaver can pick up and roll one of his dice on his turn (also make him reroll a successful save on my turn) as a houserule at my local Games Workshop. The manager actually asked around but nobody seemed to care lol. Forgot that was just a house rule, but boy that is great against stomps!
DeleteHey Andrew, I decided to see what would happen if you were to take Kharn and charge him into an Imperial Knight and the results were kind of surprising. He is a beast in close combat, even against Knights. He gets 7 attacks at S7, AP2, armourbane, with hatred (against Space Marines in all games, against everyone if he is warlord) that are hitting on a 2+ thanks to his special rule. Here is what I came up with for his percentages to remove hullpoints on the charge:
ReplyDelete0 HP - 0.02%
1 HP - 0.30%
2 HP - 1.83%
3 HP - 12.86%
4 HP - 13.78%
5 HP - 19.26%
6 HP (or more) - 51.96%
Given he is initiative 5 that means he gets to strike first against a Knight. So if you manage to get the charge on one there is over a 50% chance you're going to kill it. If you've managed to take 1 or 2 hull points off the Knight before that, there's an extremely good chance you kill it. Not bad for a paltry 160 points. If only CSM had a reliable way to get footslogging units into close combat other than a Landraider... The way I see it, the percentages look nice but the percentages of a good player being dumb enough to let you charge him are much lower.
Cool to see the math on that. Khorne league players here in Orange County have been doing that since Knights came out, and laughing at Typhus and I all the way. Also I feel GW did give us a semi reliable way to get into close combat by throwing us a bone when they released Belakor. You can't fit 35 cultists in a landraider or rhino anyways. So mash them all together and stick a KDK herald in there too then make them invisible. Stick the cultists on 32mm bases now if you want and cover the entire board so there is nowhere to run as you march to combat.
DeleteI don't know. I've still never been a fan of Cultists as a vessel for a killy HQ. It's 150 points for the Cultists, 160 for Kharn, and 350 for Be'lakor. Be'lakor can do other good things by himself, but that's 660 points for a squad where Kharn is basically the only one doing significant damage (at least if you charge vehicles or MCs). They'll cover the whole board and won't die easily with invisibility but you don't get much for them from an offensive standpoint. Now a giant squad or two of Cultists (no invisibility) with a KDK Herald of Khorne for a 55pt fearless bot is pretty dang good at tying up important squads. Even a Knight would take a few turns to stomp his way through them. Then you're not relying on them for offense but just the ability to tie up big units and even take out less important ones through sheer numbers.
DeleteInteresting, I hadn't considered him a vehicle killer, but he seems to do a good job.
DeleteTrue, I would rather do the KDK in each cultist blob and skip the invis for the most part points wise now that you mention it. I was just thinking of how to keep Kharn alive for challenges and generally scary things happening. I am just so used to the nonstop triptide and D-scythes across the table.
DeleteI actually killed a knight once with Ahriman in a full unit of cultists because he shielded the wrong side. Doombolt spam for the win. Can't always count on nice rolls though.
Always have the option of taking Typhus as well. Plague Zombies get fearless even without an IC and Feel No Pain. Unfortunately the trade-off is no ability to shoot, SnP, and no extra attack in CC since they just have one weapon. They still make for one heck of a hard to remove squad for a paltry 4 points a piece. It's just too bad you have to take Mark of Khorne on Cultists in KDK. A 35 man squad is 220 points whereas its only 150 in the base book. That difference alone is 15 more Cultists.
DeleteI just realized can khorne heralds attach to zombies since they have no mark? That could be kinda cool too. Would they get blood for the blood God though?
DeleteProbably not, but you could give them rage or hatred from a locus.
DeleteLoci would work with them (rage would be extremely powerful) because they just say "models in the unit" but BftBG would not afaik. I think the wording says models with the rule get the bonus. I think they can help get Blood Points in some ways (because one model in the unit has it) but they don't get any benefits.
DeleteI only ever use zombies now if I am taking 320 wound troll list
ReplyDelete